Republic

To such a city, then, or constitution I apply the terms good[*](Cf. on 427 E, and Newman, Introduction to Aristotle Politics p. 14; for ὀρθή, normal, see p. 423.) and right—and to the corresponding kind of man; but the others I describe as bad and mistaken, if this one is right, in respect both to the administration of states and to the formation[*](κατασκευήν: a highly general word not to be pressed in this periphrasis. Cf. Gorgias 455 E, 477 B.) of the character of the individual soul, they falling under four forms of badness.What are these, he said. And I was going on[*](Cf. 562 C, Theaetetus 180 C, Stein on Herodotus i. 5. For the transition here to the digression of books V., VI., and VII. cf. Introduction p. xvii, Phaedo 84 C. Digression need not imply that these books were not a part of the original design.) to enumerate them in what seemed to me the order of their evolution[*](μεταβαίνειν: the word is half technical. Cf. 547 C, 550 D, Laws 676 A, 736 D-E, 894 A.) from one another, when Polemarchus—he sat at some little distance[*](ἀπωτέρω absolutely. Cf. Cratinus 229 Kock ὄνοι κάθηνται τῆς λύρας ἀπωτέρω.) from Adeimantus—stretched forth his hand, and, taking hold of his garment[*](Cf. 327 B.) from above by the shoulder, drew the other toward him and, leaning forward himself, spoke a few words in his ear, of which we overheard nothing[*](Cf. 359 E.) else save only this, Shall we let him off,[*](Cf. on 327 C.) then, he said, or what shall we do? By no means, said Adeimantus, now raising his voice. What, pray,[*](Cf. 337 D, 343 B, 421 C, 612 C, Laches 188 E, Meno 80 B. There is a play on the double meaning, What, pray? and Why, pray?) said I, is it that you are not letting off? You, said he. And for what reason, pray? said I. We think you are a slacker, he said, and are trying to cheat[*](Cf. Sophocles Trach. 437.) us out of a whole division,[*](So Isocrates xv. 74 ὅλοις εἴδεσι.) and that not the least, of the argument to avoid the trouble of expounding it, and expect to get away with it by observing thus lightly that, of course, in respect to women and children it is obvious to everybody that the possessions of friends will be in common.[*](Cf. 424 A, Laws 739 C. Aristotle says that the possessions of friends should be separate in ownership but common in use, as at Sparta. Cf. Newman, Introduction to Aristotle Politics p. 201, Epicurus in Diogenes Laertius x. 11, Aristotle Politics 1263 a 30 ff., Euripides Andromache 270.) Well, isn’t that right, Adeimantus? I said. Yes, said he, but this word right,[*](Cf. 459 D, Laws 668 D, Aristotle Politics 1269 b 13, Shakespeare Tro. and Cre. I. i. 23 But here’s yet in the word hereafter the kneading, the making of the cake, etc.) like other things, requires defining[*](Cf. Laws 665 B 7.) as to the way[*](Cf. Aristotle Politics 1264 a 12.) and manner of such a community. There might be many ways. Don’t, then, pass over the one that you[*](Emphatic. Cf. 427 E.) have in mind. For we have long been lying in wait for you, expecting that you would say something both of the procreation of children and their bringing up,[*](γενομένους: a noun is supplied from the preceding verb. Cf. on 598 C, and on 341 D.) and would explain the whole matter of the community of women and children of which you speak. We think that the right or wrong management of this makes a great difference, all the difference in the world,[*](μέγα . . . καὶ ὅλον: cf. 469 C, 527 C, Phaedo 79 E, Laws 779 B, 944 C, Symposium 188 D, Demosthenes ii. 22, Aeschylus Prom. 961.) in the constitution of a state;

so now, since you are beginning on another constitution before sufficiently defining this, we are firmly resolved, as you overheard, not to let you go till you have expounded all this as fully as you did the rest.Set me down, too, said Glaucon, as voting this ticket.[*](Cf. Protagoras 330 C.) Surely, said Thrasymachus, you may consider it a joint resolution of us all, Socrates. What a thing you have done, said I, in thus challenging[*](Cf. Theaetetus 184 C, Gorgias 469 C.) me! What a huge debate you have started afresh, as it were, about this polity, in the supposed completion of which I was rejoicing, being only too glad to have it accepted as I then set it forth! You don’t realize what a swarm[*](For the metaphor cf. Euripides Bacchae 710 and σμῆνος, Republic 574 D, Cratylus 401 C, Meno 72 A.) of arguments you are stirring up[*](Cf. Philebus 36 D, Theaetetus 184 A, Cratylus 411 A.) by this demand, which I foresaw and evaded to save us no end of trouble. Well, said Thrasymachus,[*](Thrasymachus speaks here for the last time. He is mentioned in 357 A, 358 B-C, 498 C, 545 B, 590 D.)do you suppose this company has come here to prospect for gold[*](Lit. to smelt ore. The expression was proverbial and was explained by an obscure anecdote. Cf. Leutsch, Paroemiographi, ii. pp. 91, 727, and i. p. 464, and commentators on Herodotus iii. 102.) and not to listen to discussions? Yes, I said, in measure. Nay, Socrates, said Glaucon, the measure[*](Plato often anticipates and repels the charge of tedious length (see Politicus 286 C, Philebus 28 D, 36 D). Here the thought takes a different turn (as 504 C). The δέ γε implies a slight rebuke (Cf. Class. Phil . xiv. pp. 165-174).) of listening to such discussions is the whole of life for reasonable men. So don’t consider us, and do not you yourself grow weary in explaining to us what we ask or, your views as to how this communion of wives and children among our guardians will be managed, and also about the rearing of the children while still young in the interval between[*](So 498 A. Cf. on Aristophanes Acharnians 434, and Laws 792 A.) birth and formal schooling which is thought to be the most difficult part of education. Try, then, to tell us what must be the manner of it. It is not an easy thing to expound, my dear fellow, said I, for even more than the provisions that precede it, it raises many doubts. For one might doubt whether what is proposed is possible[*](Cf. 456 C, Thucydides vi. 98, Introduction xvii.) and, even conceding the possibility,[*](εἰ ὅ τι μάλιστα: a common formula for what a disputant can afford to concede. Cf. Lysias xiii. 52, xxii. 1, xxii. 10. It occurs six times in the Charmides.) one might still be sceptical whether it is best. For which reason one as it were, shrinks from touching on the matter lest the theory be regarded as nothing but a wish-thought,[*](Cf. Introduction xxxi-xxxii, 456 C, 499 C, 540 D, Laws 736 D, Aristotle Politics 1260 b 29, 1265 a 17 δεῖ μὲν οὖν ὑποτίθεσθαι κατ’ εὐχην, μηδὲν μέντοι ἀδύνατον.) my dear friend. Do not shrink, he said, for your hearers will not be inconsiderate[*](ἀγνώμονες = inconsiderate, unreasonable, as Andocides ii. 6 shows.) nor distrustful nor hostile. And I said, My good fellow, is that remark intended to encourage me? It is, he said. Well, then, said I, it has just the contrary effect. For, if I were confident that I was speaking with knowledge, it would be an excellent encouragement. For there is both safety and security in speaking the truth with knowledge about our greatest and dearest concerns to those who are both wise and dear.