And now, Zeus, give me an honest answer to a question-for we are alone, and there is no mortal present in the assembly, except Herakles and Dionysos and Ganymedes and Asklepios, who have somehow got naturalized among us—have you ever paid enough attention to the people on earth to distinguish the bad ones from the good? You cannot say you have. Certainly, unless Theseus on his way from Troizen to Athens had incidentally exterminated those malefactors, Skeiron and the Pine-Bender and Kerkyon and the others might have continued to live riotously by the slaughter of wayfarers, as far as you and your providence are concerned. And if Eurystheus, living in the earliest times and full of forethought, had not been moved by philanthropy to inquire into every one's affairs, and had not sent forth his servant here, an active man and keen for labors, you, Zeus, would have given small thought to the Hydra and the Stymphalian birds and the Thrakian horses and the drunken insolence of the Kentaurs.
On the contrary, if I must speak
candidly, we sit and watch for just one thing,
whether haply some one is sacrificing and sending up the savor of burnt-offerings beside the
Do not mind this fellow's babble, deities, for he was always an ill-conditioned fault-finder. And, besides, in the words of the great Demosthenes, it is easy to criticise and blame and find fault-any one who likes can do that; but it is the gift of a truly sagacious counsellor to point out how the state of things may be improved, and this I am sure the rest of you will do, even if Momos holds his tongue.
I, as you know, am generally under
water, and dwell by myself in the deep sea, doing
my best to rescue mariners and forward ships
and temper the winds. Nevertheless, I have a
stake in things up here, too, and it is my opinion
that this Damis ought to be disposed of before
he comes to the contest, either by lightning or
Are you joking, Poseidon, or have you clean forgotten that we have nothing to do with such matters, but that the Fates weave his death for each man—for one by lightning, for another by the sword, for a third by fever or consumption? Do you suppose that if this were under my control I would have let those temple-robbers go forth unstricken from Pisa the other day, when they had cut off two locks of my hair weighing six pounds each? Or would you yourself have ignored the fisherman from Oreos who carried off your trident at Geraistos? Above all, we should seem to have lost self-control in our distress and to be afraid of Damis's arguments, and therefore to be getting rid of the man rather than to endure to confront him with Timokles. Should we not in this way seem to be winning our case merely by default ?
Now I thought I had hit on a short cut to victory.
Nonsense, Poseidon. Your argument is
worthy of one of your own tunny-fish, positively dense. Snatch away the opponent, forsooth, so that he may die unconquered and
Very well, think of something better yourselves, if you dismiss my idea with a joke about the tunnies.
If it were permitted by law to a beardless youth like me to address the meeting, I could, perhaps, make a useful contribution to the discussion.
In the first place, Apollo, the discussion has to do with such great questions that the
right of speech does not go by years, but is common to all. For it would be a nice thing if, when
we are in the extremest danger, we should quibble about a legal qualification. But, anyhow, you
are already decidedly eligible as a speaker in the
eye of the law, for you emerged long ago from
among the youths; you have been inscribed on
the rolls of the twelve, and you were almost a
member of the council in Kronos's day. So don't
try your youthful airs on us, but speak up boldly
and tell us your views. And do not let the fact
that you are a beardless orator embarrass you,
particularly when you have your son Asklepios
here with a beard to his waist. Moreover, it
would be peculiarly fitting for you to show your
wisdom now of all occasions, unless you have sat
philosophizing with the Muses on Helikon to no
purpose.
It is not your business, however, Momos, to give these permissions, but Zeus's, and if he bids me I might perhaps say something worthy of the Muses and my exercises on Helikon.
Speak, my child; I give you leave.
This Timokles is a worthy man and pious, and perfectly conversant with the methods of the Stoics, so that he teaches many young men and levies no small fee therefor. For he is very convincing when he discourses with his pupils in private; but he lacks nerve for public speaking, and his utterance is untrained-half Greek and half barbarian. On this account he always raises a laugh in company, for he does not speak connectedly, but stammers and becomes confused, most of all when, in spite of this weakness, he wishes to exhibit elegance of style. His mind is surpassingly sharp and quick-so they say who are best informed in the doctrines of the Stoicsbut by his feebleness in speaking and expounding he spoils his subject-matter and confuses it, and fails to make his points clear, but rather lays down enigmatical propositions; and when it is his turn to answer expresses himself more darkly still. So he is misunderstood and laughed at. Now I think one should speak plainly, and take care above everything that his hearers understand him.
What you say in praise of plain-speaking, Apollo, is very just, though you do not practice
By furnishing him, if we can manage it, with counsel: one of those clever men who would deliver worthily whatever Timokles devised and suggested to him.
This is certainly a beardless utterance, and still in want of a school-master! To set up an advocate in an assemblage of philosophers to expound Timokles's views to the company! Damis to be present in person, and speak in his own character, but Timokles to use a mime and pour whatever he thinks into his ear, and the actor to deliver it, perhaps himself not understanding what he hears! Of course it would be ridiculous to the crowd. But let us consider this rather different idea.
You say, my admirable friend, that
you are a seer, and you ask a good price for your
services, and once even received bricks of gold.
Why did you not give us an exhibition of your
skill in the nick of time by telling us which of
the Sophists is going to prevail in argument? For,
of course, you know what the issue will be, since
you are a seer.
How can I, Momos, when I have no tripod with me, and no incense and no prophetic fountain like Kastalia?
Look, now, when you have got into a tight place you run away from conviction.
Never mind, my child. Speak out, and do not give this backbiter pretexts for slander, and for saying, in his sneering way, that your skill is dependent on your tripod and your water and your incense, and that unless you have these your art will be lost.
These things, father, are better done in Delphi or in Kolophon, where I have all the accessories to which I am accustomed. Still, bare as I am of these and unequipped, I will try to prophesy which of them will have the mastery. But you will bear with me if my verses should nor be very correct.
Speak, but only make your remarks clear, Apollo, so that they will not need an advocate themselves or interpretation. This is not a case of sheep's flesh and tortoise being boiled together in Lydia. You know what our inquiry is about.
What in the world are you going to tell
us, my child? The symptoms that precede the
utterance are already alarming. His color is
fading, his eyes are rolling, his hair is standing
on end, and his gestures are those of a Korybant.
Why do you burst out laughing at this, Momus? Surely there is nothing humorous in our present situation. Stop, wretch, or you will choke with laughing.
How can I help laughing at such a clear, straightforward oracle?
Then, perhaps, you will kindly interpret to us what he says.
It is perfectly plain, so that we shall
not need Themistokles. The oracle says clearly
that the seer is a juggler and that we are packasses,
I do not hesitate, father, to express my views, even though I am only a resident foreigner. My idea is that when they meet and are already engaged in discussion, then, if Timokles prove the better man, we will allow the meeting to proceed to our advantage. But if it turn out otherwise, then by your leave I will shake the Porch itself from its foundations and hurl it at Damis, so that the accursed wretch may not offer insult to us.
Heavens, Herakles, what a boorish speech, and how horribly Boeotian! To destroy so many for the sake of one wretch, and, what is more, the Porch with Marathon, Miltiades, Kynaegeiros and all? If all these should perish together, how would the orators continue to practise, deprived of the chief theme of their speeches? Moreover, in your lifetime it was perhaps possible to do even a thing of that kind; but since you have become a god, you have learned, I presume, that the Fates alone control these matters, and we have no voice in them.
Then, when I was slaying the lion or the hydra, the Fates were doing these things by my agency?
Certainly.
And at this moment if any one uses
By no means.
Then, Zeus, hear me declare myself frankly, for I am a boor, as the comic poet said, and I call a spade a spade. If this is our plight, I shall bid a long farewell to the worship and savor of burnt-offerings and blood of victims in heaven, and go off to Hades. There the ghosts, at least, of the beasts I slew will be afraid of me, if I have my bow, though I be unarmed beside.
Very well; nothing like a relative for turning state's evidence, as they say. You would have saved Damis the trouble of making these remarks by suggesting them yourself.
But who is this hasty - comer-bronze, wellformed, with a good outline and an obsolete coiffure? It must be your brother, Hermes, the one that stands in the market-place near the Porch. At all events, his hollows are full of pitch from having impressions of him taken daily by the statuaries. Why, my child, do you come to us at racing speed? Have you, perhaps, some fresh news from earth?
Great news, Zeus, and calling for the greatest attention.
Speak, then, if some new trouble has arisen unknown to us.
Drop the iambics, there's a good fellow. I know whom you mean. But tell me this, whether they have already joined battle.
Not yet. They were still skirmishing and attacking each other from afar with the javelins of abuse.
What is there left for us to do now, deities, but bend down and listen to them? So let the Hours draw the bolt immediately and chase away the clouds and throw open the gates of heaven.
Heavens, what a crowd has gathered to hear
them! But I am not very well satisfied with
Timokles himself; he is trembling with confusion. He will ruin everything this day. Evidently he will not be able to stand against Damis. However, let us do what in us lies and
pray for him.
What is this you say, Damis, you looter of temples? That the gods do not exist or exercise providence for men?
That is what I say; but do you first answer me, and state what reason you have for believing in their existence.
I will not, you wretch. You answer me.
I will not. Answer yourself.
So far our man has been far more successfully and loudly abusive. That's right, Timokles, pour on the abuse. Your strength lies there, since in other lines he stops your mouth and makes you dumb as a fish.
By Heaven, I will not answer you first if I know it.
Then put your question, for you beat me that time by swearing. But spare abusive language, if you please.
Very well. Tell me, then, is it your opinion, accursed wretch, that the gods exert no providence?
They do not.
What, is the universe, then, not the result of design?
It is not.
And did no god arrange the whole superintendence of things either?
No.
But all things are borne along haphazard by an unreasoning current?
Yes.
Now can you men endure to hear this and not stone the guilty wretch?
Why do you stir up the audience against me, Timokles? And who are you to show anger in the gods' behalf when they are not angry themselves? At least they have not handled me roughly, though they have heard me for a long time, supposing they do hear.
They hear, Damis, they hear, and they will take vengeance on you some day.
And when would they have leisure for
my case if, as you say, they are full of cares,
managing the universe, infinite as it is? That is
the reason they have not yet even punished you
for your continual perjuries and your other crimes,
which I will not specify lest I should be driven
to use abusive language myself, contrary to our
agreement. And yet I do not see how they could
produce better proof of their own providence than
by bringing your bad life to a bad end. But
clearly they have gone abroad, across the ocean,
perchance to visit the "blameless Ethiopians."
At least it is their habit to go constantly to dine
with them, and sometimes on their own invitation.
What shall I say in reply to such shameless effrontery?
What I have been yearning to hear from you this long time: how you came to believe in the providence of the gods.
I was convinced of it first by the order of natural events: the sun who always travels the same road and the moon similarly, and the recurring seasons, and the growth of plants, and the birth of animals, and these animals themselves so ingeniously contrived that they feed themselves and reason, and move about and walk, and build houses and make shoes, and all the rest of it. Do not these seem to you the works of providence?
Why, Timokles, you have assumed the
very question in dispute, for it remains to be seen.
whether each of these is accomplished by providence. That natural events are such as you describe I, too, admit, but it does not follow of
necessity that they owe their existence to any intelligent foresight. For it is possible that they
had some other origin, and yet have now a consistent and methodical existence. But this forced
action of theirs you call 'order,' and then, forsooth, you fly into a rage if some one rejects your
argument when, after recounting and praising the
nature of objects, you go on to believe that this
is a proof that each of them is also put in its
For my part, I do not think that additional proof is necessary; but still I will go on. Answer me, do you consider Homer the best of poets?
Certainly.
Well, he convinced me by setting forth the providence of the gods.
But, my astonishing friend, every one will grant you that Homer is a great poet, but not that he or any poet whatsoever is a reliable witness in these matters. For their concern, I imagine, is not for truth, but to charm their hearers; and on this account they lull us with metres and amuse us with stories, and devise the whole thing in the interests of pleasure. Still, I should be pleased to hear what passages of Homer chiefly convinced you.
Probably those in which he
speaks of Zeus, and tells how his daughter and
his brother and his wife plotted to put him in
irons. And if Thetis had not perceived what was
going on and called Briareos, our glorious Zeus
would have been seized and tied up. It was in
return for this and to repay his obligation to Thetis that he deceived Agamemnon by sending him
a false dream for the destruction of many Greeks.
Notice that he was unable to launch a thunderbolt