Soc.

But as a set-off to that, I ask you if it would not be just as hard on me, while you spoke at length and refused to answer my questions, not to be free to go away and avoid listening to you. No, if you have any concern for the argument that we have carried on, and care to set it on its feet again, revoke whatever you please, as I suggested just now; take your turn in questioning and being questioned, like me and Gorgias; and thus either refute or be refuted. For you claim, I understand, that you yourself know all that Gorgias knows, do you not?

Pol.

I do.

Soc.

Then are you with him also in bidding us ask at each point any questions we like of you, as one who knows how to answer?

Pol.

Certainly I am.

Soc.

So now, take whichever course you like: either put questions, or answer them.

Pol.

Well, I will do as you say. So answer me this, Socrates: since you think that Gorgias is at a loss about rhetoric, what is your own account of it?

Soc.

Are you asking what art I call it?

Pol.

Yes.

Soc.

None at all, I consider, Polus, if you would have the honest truth.

Pol.

But what do you consider rhetoric to be?

Soc.

A thing which you say—in the treatise which I read of late—made art.

Pol.

What thing do you mean?

Soc.

I mean a certain habitude.

Pol.

Then do you take rhetoric to be a habitude?

Soc.

I do, if you have no other suggestion.

Pol.

Habitude of what?

Soc.

Of producing a kind of gratification and pleasure.

Pol.

Then you take rhetoric to be something fine—an ability to gratify people?

Soc.

How now, Polus? Have you as yet heard me tell you what I say it is, that you ask what should follow that—whether I do not take it to be fine?

Pol.

Why, did I not hear you call it a certain habitude?

Soc.

Then please—since you value gratification—be so good as gratify me in a small matter.

Pol.

I will.

Soc.

Ask me now what art I take cookery to be.

Pol.

Then I ask you, what art is cookery ?

Soc.

None at all, Polus.

Pol.

Well, what is it ? Tell me.

Soc.

Then I reply, a certain habitude.

Pol.

Of what? Tell me.

Soc.

Then I reply, of production of gratification and pleasure, Polus.

Pol.

So cookery and rhetoric are the same thing?

Soc.

Not at all, only parts of the same practice.

Pol.

What practice do you mean?